PAYNE, FBI: Okay. Um, gonna run through your, uh, Miranda rights here. I know we’ve been through ▸ Officer Jeff Bell, Anchorage Police Department ‘em before but, uh, we’re gonna run through ‘em one more time. Before we ask you any questions you must understand your rights.
You have the right to remain silent. ▸ This is said at the head of all five sessions, over six months Anything you say can be used against you in court. Uh, you have the right to talk to a lawyer for advice before we ask you questions. Uh, you have the right to have a lawyer with you during questioning.
If you cannot afford a lawyer one will be appointed for you, uh, before any questioning if you wish. If you decide to answer questions now without a lawyer present you have the right to stop answering at any time. Uh, do you understand these rights as I’ve explained ‘em to you? PAYNE, FBI: And with that explanation in mind are you willing to waive your rights and speak PAYNE, FBI: Okay.
Um, one other thing you’ve got, uh, standby counsel appointed in, uh, in this with us today? ▸ The one case he is charged with is walled off. He has a lawyer on it particular matter. I believe it’s, uh, Rich CURTNER, um… PAYNE, FBI: …and it may also be, uh, Jacqueline WALSH.
I’m not 100 percent sure of that but, uh, be that as it may do you have - do you want either of those attorneys present today? KEYES: No. PAYNE, FBI: Okay, um, are you on any medications or any other subs- substances that we should PAYNE, FBI: Okay, and are you having any difficulty understanding where you’re at or what’s know about? PAYNE, FBI: Okay, I didn’t think so.
All right, now that we’re done with that I apologize. Um, going on? uh, we’re jump in here and the first thing I gotta tell ya, uh, ISRAEL we talked about it a little bit, uh - uh, earlier that - that stunt yesterday in the court room did not go over well. Between March and December 2012, the FBI recorded more than forty hours of conversation with Israel Keyes.
It published five of them. FELDIS, prosecutor: All right good. Hey just before we start I know these guys read you your rights ▸ Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis earlier.
FELDIS, prosecutor: Okay so again I wanna make sure we go we have those accountable, RICH told me that ▸ On this tape, the last one, he has just sent his own lawyer out of the room you indicated that you did not want him present today. And so we will, uh, take you at your word on that and if at any time you would like us to call RICH back or any other attorney to be stand by counsel, uh, please let us know, okay? KEYES: All right. FELDIS, prosecutor: Uh, we’re – we’re only gonna be talking about things unrelated to the Samantha FELDIS, prosecutor: All right and, uh, obviously, uh, without your attorneys present in the KOENIG case FELDIS, prosecutor: attorney.
And RICH just came out and indicated that, um, uh, you did not want him to KOENIG case today. Do you understand that? FELDIS, prosecutor: How are you doing today ISRAEL? KEYES: Understood.
Yes. KEYES: Keep for a hundred years or something. we wont be able to talk about anything related to that case and if – if you start to be present today. talk about it, you know, we’re gonna have to stop, uh....
FELDIS, prosecutor: the interview, okay? FELDIS, prosecutor: All right, um, that’s been sitting in the....in the refrigerator…. KEYES: I’m not eating that. FELDIS, prosecutor: for the, uh....
KEYES: Than – thank you but.... He was charged with one murder. He was not charged with any other, and he never was. RUSSO, prosecutor: I think so.
I mean I think this is, uh, a great amount of progress. Where we are and ▸ Israel Keyes I think, you know, it - it’s gonna help us move the ball forward. Um, you know, just to sort of reiterate they basically have said and agreed that, um, they know it’s important to you to sort of avoid media attention to, um, that -that you don’t want law enforcement identifying you in connection with the CURRIER matter. That they’re prepared to do.
Um, and they’re prepared to continue cooperating and in exchange you’re agreeing to be truthful about other crimes… RUSSO, prosecutor: …and other bodies. And in here they specifically mention the name of the victim in KEYES: Right. They wanna know… New York. RUSSO, prosecutor: So a- as it says… RUSSO, prosecutor: And I have a conference call tomorrow with them and I’d like to be able to tell them BELL, Anchorage Police: Kinda close to them.
that you’re continuing to cooperate and you’ve provided that information. KEYES: I do wanna continue to cooperate, um, I’m having some issues as far as, uh, this is somewhat of a unrealistic expectation on my part but I was thinking there might be a way to disclose all this information to you, and to the FBI. And to some way ensure - somehow ensure that, uh, we could work out some sort of agreement that, you know, I give you all the answers on these cases and - and, uh, you know, families get closure and you find as many - as many of them as possible. And, um, and in return for that, you know, I, you know, I don’t plan on being around a whole lot longer but a really big concern to me is, um, you know, my kids gonna be around.
I - I don’t ▸ This is what he is asking to be paid: that his daughter not find him want her to like type my name into the computer and have it pop up like… KEYES: …you know, that - you know, I already know stuffs gonna come up I know that. RUSSO, prosecutor: Mm-hm. RUSSO, prosecutor: Mm-hm. KEYES: But, um, I just, uh, try to minimize that at this point I guess.
Is wha- is what I was hoping to do and, um, apparently it’s gonna be really difficult, uh, to get that assurance. So I’m trying to, you know, figure out a way we can still do that. Um, uh, I think there is, you know, I have a few ideas on - on how we can work it out but, uh… What he wanted was to be executed, quickly, and quietly. The agent who ran the interviews put it in six words: he wanted the death penalty and he wanted it fast.
KEYES: Yeah, well, I mean I know it’s gonna be hard for a- anybody to acc- accept but ▸ Israel Keyes, 24 May 2012 especially them I would imagine that, uh, that didn’t really have anything to do BELL, Anchorage Police: And, but I don’t think… with our arrangement. KEYES: From my perspective so. BELL, Anchorage Police: Okay, but I mean don’t think it’s something that they can’t work past. They’ve - they’ve worked through some pretty miracle stuff right now.
So I think this is something they can probably - they just they want some assurance that, uh… BELL, Anchorage Police: …we - we’re gonna be able to go back down that same road that we were on… KEYES: Yeah, well… BELL, Anchorage Police: …we’ve made a major turn. KEYES: …strictly (chuckles). I don’t imagine this will stay strictly between you and me and people in this room but you - I believe the people in this room know me well enough now to know that, um, that when I say what happened yesterday has nothing to do with our arrangement it - like I say, it’s not some - part of some grand scheme, um, I ▸ He died on 2 December, six months after saying this all ready know how this all ends for me so. BELL, Anchorage Police: Well that - I mean that’s good.
I think that we - if we can hear that from ya that - that’s - that’s… KEYES: Yeah. BELL, Anchorage Police: That was an opportunity that - that - that happened there and… He said this in May. PAYNE, FBI: The - some of the things that they’re concerned about and that they’re getting ▸ The day before, he had tried to run from the courthouse questioned about by - like Vermont for example, uh, ‘cause like JEFF said we know that they had a long conference call with Vermont today trying to explain what happened and answer questions of, you know, Vermont - we saw a draft version of the letter and, uh, it was everything you asked for. I mean… PAYNE, FBI: …it truly was.
And, uh, I think they’re trying to answer some pretty tough questions from Vermont right now about basically what the fuck? KEYES: Right but I mean still - even still from their perspective, um, I - they’ve - I mean come on lets face it, yeah, what happened yesterday ooh I’m a bad guy I tried to escape but, um, let’s be honest nobody really thought I was a good guy before that so (chuckles). It’s not like me escaping suddenly makes me untrustworthy. I was kind of untrustworthy before that so (chuckles).
PAYNE, FBI: That’s… BELL, Anchorage Police: You - at least you have the - the perspective of, I mean, you’re not having unrealistic perspective (chuckles) of what... KEYES: Yeah, I’m not, um - and obviously (chuckles) I think you probably especially know that I’m not gonna get another opportunity like that. At least not within my lifetime (chuckles) so - so I mean, I don’t know - I don’t know what to tell ‘em. You know, all I can say is that, um, I mean nothings changed as far as, uh, my day to day, my reality.
You know, it’s still - still the same. The day before this recording he had tried to escape from the courthouse, and failed. He is talking here about the day after. KEYES: Well I (chuckles) I’m not sure if they’re feasible yet.
I’ve - I’ve been, you know, ▸ Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo talking to different people about it from the - from what can happen - from a I guess a legal perspective. You know, it’s one thing to - to make assurances, you know - you know, that’s - that’s great I mean if we get some of this stuff on the table for now it helps us deal with the problems for right now but, um, you know, down the road that’s what I’m concerned about. I’m not gonna be around, you know… KEYES: …which is fine I’m - I’m - but that doesn’t, uh, doesn’t change the fact that, you ▸ Vermont had agreed in writing not to name him, while he kept talking know, like just because - just because I’m not connected with it right away it could happen later and, uh… RUSSO, prosecutor: Mm-hm.
KEYES: So I’m trying to I guess maybe cover myself that way as much as possible and still get you what you need. RUSSO, prosecutor: Yeah, I mean, I think, um, you know, sort of the plan I drafted up, I mean, this is sort of a - a good starting point. Your right, I mean, no one can guarantee you that your never gonna be connected to some of these things. Um, what we can do to respond to some of this is create this sort of snowball effect of the jurisdictions.
KEYES: Right. RUSSO, prosecutor: And we started with Vermont, I mean, we know even though we gave Vermont the information up front, we know it’s - it’s possible. RUSSO, prosecutor: Because we just did it and it will be even - we’re in a better position in other jurisdictions when we go to them and say all right look we’ve got Vermont down, we’ve got a body in New York, um, either get on board or were not gonna play with RUSSO, prosecutor: It creates this snowball effect where the momentum - and no one’s gonna try and get ya. Um… in the way of that.
So, I mean, you know, sort of the plan we sorta lined out for ya it was my hope that - that’s something we can use as a model. We used Vermont as a model and now it’s - it’s certainly it’s working. We’re taking a big step in Vermont saying all right you know what, you guys obviously it’s - it’s KEYES who’s solving at least the CURRIERS crime and we’re gonna defer to Alaska and we’re gonna, sort of, give you what you need but in return, you know, we’re not gonna - we’re not gonna say anything - we’re gonna keep things under the radar. We’re not gonna link it publicly and we’re not gonna make a splash in the media which I think is, I mean, as far as law enforcement guarantees or insurances it’s as good as it gets.
The state of Vermont had written to say it would not name him publicly, and would not charge him, while he went on cooperating. That letter is what the government had to sell. KEYES: Um, and there hasn’t been - I haven’t honestly I haven’t had access to any new ▸ Israel Keyes PAYNE, FBI: …accurately. stories related to that.
I saw the one that you showed me when they started to dig. BELL, Anchorage Police: That’s the last one. BELL, Anchorage Police: I’m Google - I Google it almost everyday. There’s nothing… KEYES: They haven’t they’re - it’s kind of a dead story at this point.
BELL, Anchorage Police: …no more releases. BELL, Anchorage Police: So, I mean, I think what I heard to is you - you’re - you’re wanting to take responsibility. Your plan is to take responsibility if you can figure out how to do this without getting the recognition. Which is kinda like… BELL, Anchorage Police: …what’s going on with Vermont.
KEYES: Right. My concern - the problem is nowadays, uh, the more stuff my name is attached to the more likely it is that somebody’s gonna try to do some kinda stupid freaking TV special or, you know - you know how it is. Nowadays like with all this true crime bullshit that people are obsessed with and that’s, uh - I’m not even so concerned at this point about, uh, you know, ‘cause so far I feel like we have been able to work within the guidelines of what we both said we would. Uh, but I’m - I’m, yeah, I am concerned about that.
About someone connecting the dots on this and, um, I - I don’t know how like the right - there - I know there’s certain privacy laws but I know that, you know, for the most case they’re not going to apply to me. And, uh, so I know that, um, at some point it’s pretty likely that if someone tried hard enough they could, you know… BELL, Anchorage Police: I… PAYNE, FBI: Not - not - not so much because this is - you got a couple of things sorta working in our favor on this. One it’s an ongoing investigation… PAYNE, FBI: …and so that right there is gonna limit the amount of information that’s gonna be released. Um, and two it’s an ongoing federal investigation and we play by a whole different set of rules than most of the states out there and so media agen- media outlets don’t have the same ability to come in and sort of force us if you will to disclose information, uh, that they might be able to get away with - with state local agencies.
He is describing, in 2012, the thing you are watching now. BELL, Anchorage Police: …we’re gonna find anything out but we have to try. And so I - I and I know that’s RUSSO, prosecutor: Especially the one in New York, I mean, ‘cause the only reason we’re not just tough for you to think about and in the future is that the reality may be that, you ▸ The government offers him a smaller number as a thing of value showing you a picture here is these guys and the FBI have been incredibly restrained about asking that part of the country for assistance. Because if they ask that part of the country for assistance the immediate re- response is going to be well what do you have… RUSSO, prosecutor: …who do you have?
And so that’s the reason we’re not sitting here throwing, you know, pictures in front of you and going to you first. Because, you know, we understand you’re cooperating with us, Vermont understands it and that’s why they’re on board. And we’d just like to continue that effort instead of, you know, having RUSSO, prosecutor: …quite frankly. And, you know, with respect to XXXXX I mean there is that whole this whole, you know, media frenzy too… frenzy that’s gonna be created, you know, uh, if - if things slow down I think, um, you know, we - we touched on this last time is that there may be sort of some benefit at the end of this to well, you know, the media says that Israel KEYES killed 40 people which, you know, based upon some wild speculation as apposed to he killed 10 and then also gave closure to those families as his sort of last effort.
I mean, and - and I know that doesn’t matter to you - it may matter to her. BELL, Anchorage Police: And, you know, we’re always gonna be bound to not talk about this just like we are now. And assume you’re not gonna be telling people details - other people that have, you know… KEYES: What do you mean - well I mean you do press releases all the time… BELL, Anchorage Police: Yeah, but you - but you - but you know that the details of this, uh, these investigation are right here, right now and that a lot of these details are- aren’t gonna be released. KEYES: Well that is my concern that, um, yeah, I - I how much - I don’t know.
See I don’t know that because I - I mean I see, you know, I - I watch the news there - there are Nobody in the room knew what the real number was. They still do not. BELL, Anchorage Police: …to get - to get information. You understand that.
We - we… ▸ Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo BELL, Anchorage Police: …all are - have jobs to do and so we just wanna keep the communication open with ya. KEYES: That - that - and that’s my, I guess that’s what I’m saying. I’m not so concerned KEYES: …a standoff, you know, type situation.
about the people in this room… KEYES: …I’m concerned about people putting pressure on you to get the answers. I imagine they, you know, they don’t care about my agenda they want all the answers like… KEYES: …right now, you know, and I understand that but, um, I just hope it doesn’t come to RUSSO, prosecutor: Mm-hm. that. I just hope it doesn’t come to like… BELL, Anchorage Police: I hope not too.
RUSSO, prosecutor: Yeah, I think that, you know, this is a business deal. I think, you know, agent PAYNE explained it. It’s sort of, you know, it’s just a - it’s a business deal and it’s kinda strange because, you know, obviously we all have different interests but that’s usually the case in any kind of business deal is you have stuff that we… RUSSO, prosecutor: …want and we have, you know, things that we can assure you of that, you know, is of some value to you I think. And so in any kind of business deal like I said negotiations any good negotiations everybody walks away from the table, you know, not getting exactly what they want.
And I think, you know, we’ve - we’ve basically been able to manage our supervisors that way by saying look he’s not gonna give us RUSSO, prosecutor: Okay? He’s not gonna do it. But we’re able to kinda say hey but - but he will maybe everything up front. give us one at a time and draw it our for a period of time to keep sort of the benefit of the bargain for us and not… RUSSO, prosecutor: …expending man hours and, you know, going through all the press and media and, you know, other local departments.
So, yeah, we’re not getting exactly we want and you’re probably not getting exactly what you want. RUSSO, prosecutor: You’d probably like to not give us any of it. RUSSO, prosecutor: But, you know, it’s a business deal and, you know, we’re - we’re keeping up our end of it and I think we can continue to work together… RUSSO, prosecutor: …as long as we’re reasonable. KEYES: Yeah, I - I just - I just wanted to - I figured that was the case I just wanted to let you know that’s what I was thinking.
BELL, Anchorage Police: But know that when we’re - while we’re doing what we’re doing our responsibilities and talking to you and trying to keep this going there are lots of other people out there investigating trips and airline tickets and phone logs and things like that, doing what police do and there’s gonna come a point and time where when that investigations reaches a point where they think they have some information that they need to act on where they’ll - they’ll that’s the timeline we’re gonna be pushed up By June the government had run out of things to offer that he wanted, and began offering things that cost it nothing. FELDIS, prosecutor: I mean that seems like basic negotiating things. So that - does that make sense? KEYES: Yeah, I mean, um, the part you left out is that with option A is that if I continue ▸ Assistant U.S.
Attorney Kevin Feldis to give them information is it’s - they can still do whatever they want as far as charging me. FELDIS, prosecutor: Well, look… KEYES: I don’t - they don’t have to give me their word on anything. I know… FELDIS, prosecutor: They don’t, but they have, and they’ve given me their word. And so I think what you said was very insightful like well if you don’t wanna move things quickly but you don’t want ‘em to be really slow - but quickly is in my opinion you tell us.
FELDIS, prosecutor: And the slow is you tell us nothing. What you said at the very end when we took a break was, hey if I have to give you a little bit each step along the way to keep things moving I - that’s - that’s in the middle. Things will move they move as quickly, they wont move as slowly, but they’ll move. So I’m asking you then today to give us the name of the person in New York as a little something.
It’s, you know, half a card you can rip in half, you give us the name, we move things forward. KEYES: It’s - no. It’s not half a (chuckles) card, it’s pretty - no. FELDIS, prosecutor: Well I - you - you give us a name today I think we’ll be back here next week and you wont - you wont have heard a peep of that.
Nobody will hear - have heard about it. FELDIS, prosecutor: And it keeps things moving. You know, we’ll be sitting here next week you won’t even heard a thing. We’ll sit in the week after you won’t have heard a thing about it.
‘Kay, because we’re gonna live up to our end of things because that’s what was our commitment to keep that - to follow your goals. You - you - here’s what can happen today. You give me the name, I write it down, I don’t ask any more questions, we all ▸ One name, for a lunch and a cigar. He does not give it have some lunch, talk about whatever you wanna talk about, you have a cigar, uh, you know, we can talk about the weather, what’s going on in Anchorage, you know, whatever.
All I - I’ll just write down the name, we have lunch, you have a cigar. KEYES: Well I mean it sounds tempting but no I’m not - I’m not giving the name. I’m not FELDIS, prosecutor: That - that’s fine. You do what you need to do.
We’ll see if it changes next week. I giving any names on anything until I - until I find out what my options are. mean I think we’ll be in the same position next week where we are today. And so by not acting we’re going towards plan B that’s all.
You know, it’s not a - it’s not a threat or anything like that it’s just saying, you know, I gave plan A - path A and He did not give the name. It has never been given. KEYES: Right. No I - I - for now, yeah, I agree with you.
I - I mean, yeah, if - I think we can keep - I - I think I could probably tell you everything today and being the case ▸ Israel Keyes that it is I’m sure we could probably keep stuff under wraps for what - a year, two FELDIS, prosecutor: So then what’s the… BELL, Anchorage Police: Well there you go. FELDIS, prosecutor: …what’s the deal, you know? KEYES: I’m worried about after that. Eventually my name is gonna be attached to it.
So if there’s a way that, uh, I can protect myself from that, uh, and still get you guys what you need then I’m gonna do it. KEYES: I already, look - I don’t need to be punished for these other things that I haven’t talked to you about yet because, yeah, all these other sta - they’re not gonna - they can’t prosecute a dead man so it’s like what… FELDIS, prosecutor: Do you think anyone’s gonna really - do you think Vermont charge - say Vermont charges you for the CURRIER’s do you think they’re really gonna give you the death penalty knowing that there’s more things out there? Do you think they’re gonna say, ah, you know, let just move forward. KEYES: Right so see - I know I’m… ▸ Neither side can go first, and both of them say so FELDIS, prosecutor: You’re in a catch 22.
KEYES: I get your point exactly. I already fucked up so (chuckles). FELDIS, prosecutor: You’re - you’re in a catch 22 and we’re offering you is, uh, you know we’re offering you what is I think your best bet. That’s your call buddy but, you know, you’re in a catch 22 because Vermont US Attorney’s office, Vermont state isn’t gonna rush forward and give you what you want knowing that there’s more information.
KEYES: Well, yeah, right I know. They can’t give me what I want anyway so. FELDIS, prosecutor: Well, uh, you know, they could charge you federally in Vermont with the - with the car jacking resulting in the CURRIER’s death. They haven’t done that because they’ve trusted us that we’re… FELDIS, prosecutor: …coordinating.
They’re not gonna rush out there and give you some sentence whatever KEYES: Right. it may be while you’re still - while there’s still information out there about unsolved crimes. We’re - we’re offering what I th - see that’s your catch 22. And I wanted to make sure we understood that right?
KEYES: No I, yeah, I - I get it. FELDIS, prosecutor: You know, and, um, and we’re trying to work on the timing, to control the media, the control - you control how the story comes out, this is your opportunity. You control the story, you control the timing, you control the media. And by timing I mean moving it quickly.
The other alternative B is takes forever possibly, um, you don’t control any of the rest of this stuff. You’re - you may be right they never get it but then they’re not gonna just move forward knowing - with the unknown. The middle ground I think is what you suggested at the end. You give me a name, I write it down, you have lunch and a cigar and we all meet again whenever you want to meet again.
And you’re not gonna hear anything about it between now and then. The deadlock was exact. He would not talk until he knew he would be executed; no prosecutor would agree to execute him while there was still something he had not said. FELDIS, prosecutor: We think it’s your call.
Um, I can’t do anything with a name. Doesn’t - I mean it - ▸ The government tells him the body will never be found other than buy the good will of the other people who can say he’s continuing to cooperate and we’re getting - we’re getting a little bit, we’re moving in the right direction, we’re gonna stay on plan A Other than that, we can’t do anything with it. KEYES: There’s a lot of other things. FELDIS, prosecutor: They’re not gonna find any - they’re not gonna find the body from what you’ve told ▸ Special Agent Steve Payne, FBI KEYES: No I’m not - I’m not worried about it.
PAYNE, FBI: So if you’re not worried about it - it sounds like you have nothing to lose. KEYES: Well by giving, yeah, that’s probably not - it’s true the body is - the name doesn’t give you the body but… FELDIS, prosecutor: Yeah, I mean I… FELDIS, prosecutor: I’m asking you for the most minimal thing that I think keeps us going in right direction. Now we meet again next week. KEYES: That’s fine.
I - like I said, I already told these guys today when they picked me up I’m not - nothing is - actually nothing has changed since last meeting on my end. I don’t have any new informa - you know, nothing has happened that I wanted to happen By July the death penalty was formally on the table, and he was arguing for it. KEYES: …a jury or a judge. KEYES: And obviously in everything we’ve discussed there’s a lot of that - I mean if ▸ He is asking for this to be kept out of a public sentencing hearing RUSSO, prosecutor: Okay.
KEYES: Jury or a judge. RUSSO, prosecutor: Mm-hm. they’re gonna review all of the evidence then that’s primarily gonna be in - interviews that we’ve done. KEYES: In which that information is gonna be in that evidence.
RUSSO, prosecutor: Mm-hm. RUSSO, prosecutor: Mm-hm. KEYES: And so if it’s a public hearing it’s gonna be - all that’s gonna become public and KEYES: …from the beginning. You know, I, um, certain aspects of this that, you know, yeah that’s what exactly - what I didn’t want...
there’s no way around it but, you know… KEYES: …as far as different things that were done with the bodies and the sexual assault RUSSO, prosecutor: Mm-hm. stuff - that type of stuff I just don’t obv - I don’t see a, you know, if - if that has to be part of the hearing then I would (chuckles) we gotta figure out something different. I mean I don’t… RUSSO, prosecutor: Mm-hm. Well I got sort of two possible solutions I’ve been thinking about, um, if it gets to that point.
You know, one with respect to stuff that you’re working with us on like, you know, other crimes other, you know, bodies, um, and they’re still investigating to corroborate your confessions for those murders. You know, we can certainly seek approval to close that part of the sentencing to the extent you’re talking about those. All right now look I - I don’t know whether or not - there’s no guarantees whether or not main justice would grant that. Um, the second portion of it is, you know, we control the evidence that we present.
So the government’s gotta present the evidence and, you know, maybe there’s some way to kind of address both of our concerns here by circumscribing, by limiting the amount of stuff that’s introduced into court for that. So I’ve been toying with that idea, um, now obviously there’s a - there’s a catch 22 to that right? RUSSO, prosecutor: Mm-hm. Well I got sort of two possible solutions I’ve been thinking about, um, if it ▸ Assistant U.S.
Attorney Frank Russo gets to that point. You know, one with respect to stuff that you’re working with us on like, you know, other crimes other, you know, bodies, um, and they’re still investigating to corroborate your confessions for those murders. You know, we can certainly seek approval to close that part of the sentencing to the extent you’re talking about those. All right now look I - I don’t know whether or not - there’s no ▸ He is negotiating for his own execution, and this is the obstacle guarantees whether or not main justice would grant that.
Um, the second portion of it is, you know, we control the evidence that we present. So the government’s gotta present the evidence and, you know, maybe there’s some way to kind of address both of our concerns here by circumscribing, by limiting the amount of stuff that’s introduced into court for that. So I’ve been toying with that idea, um, now obviously there’s a - there’s a catch 22 to that right? RUSSO, prosecutor: The worse things, you know, appear to the jury or the judge the more likely it is you’re gonna get what you want.
RUSSO, prosecutor: In the context of the CURRIER case, all right? Thanks. Background Noise (door KEYES: Right. Background Noise (door opening) RUSSO, prosecutor: Um, but I think that there is maybe a way around that.
But in order to kinda get around that what we’d have to do is we’d hafta have at least the basic information on all of the murders you’ve committed. So basically it’s not like, hey, you know, we’re sort of going with, uh, quantity rather than quality… RUSSO, prosecutor: …of the murders sort of. And if we can corroborate those, you know, I think there may be a way to kind of get you what you want but also, um, you know, obviously we’d get what we want then too. That would have to be part of the negotiation.
Now these are just thoughts that I’ve had but… KEYES: Right. Here - here’s the problem with that scenario is like you said, I might get what I want, you definitely get what you want. RUSSO, prosecutor: Mm-hm. No - I mean look, you know, I think you said it before in - in other context of, you know, uh, if people hear the things you’ve done, you know, I don’t think, you know, any jury would have any doubts about what they’d do.
Um, I can’t promise what a jury is gonna do, I can never do that. The prosecutor's own words for the bargain were quantity rather than quality: the number of murders, without the details of any of them. KEYES: Yeah, I’m just not so sure I even have that goal anymore. I mean like I say if I - ▸ The FBI transcript reads “events” here.
The word is evidence if they’re gonna - if me looking for the death penalty is gonna make this into a bigger circus than it already is and they’re gonna take all this information that I’ve - all the things that I’ve done and put it in a public sentencing hearing. I… GOEDEN, FBI: It doesn’t have to happen that way though. KEYES: Well I don’t know that though. I mean I’ve - ‘cause I’ve been told it does so this is the problem we have (chuckles).
RUSSO, prosecutor: Well - well I can tell you is the United States government controls what events is introduced into court. And I represent them. So I have absolute control over what evidence I put in. KEYES: Right.
Well that’s good to know. GOEDEN, FBI: And if it says in here what evidence gets introduced, that’s what FRANK has to go RUSSO, prosecutor: Yeah, I mean no one’s gonna tell me that, you know, here’s what I have to do. Now obviously there’s, you know, bosses everywhere that will try to tell you stuff but if we have an agreement that bonds those people then, you know, it is what it is. Court doesn’t have any right to demand more information from us.
Court has to let us try our case. And I decide all the time at trial, I’m not gonna put that person on even though maybe they could help my case but it’s not worth it to me. It’s not worth it to me ‘cause I have some other goal in mind. It’s the legal strategy 101 that happens every day.
So, you know, that is in my control that’s what I’m telling you. And so you want something that’s within my control, it’s as simple as that. RUSSO, prosecutor: No I think - I think that we do have control over things and you have control over ▸ Israel Keyes things because - that I put in there just, you know, the Attorney General thing a (unintelligible) for what you want. ‘Cause if you’re not getting what you want then I understand you don’t have a benefit.
If the Attorney General comes back and says, you know, life in prison is what I want you to seek that’s not gonna make you happy. And then, you know, the benefit of your bargain is - is lost in my eyes. And that’s why I put it in there. But look, you know, I think we didn’t wanna write this letter by saying, you know, the Attorney General is not - never gonna guarantee what’s gonna happen.
We can’t make the Attorney General guarantee what’s gonna happen, we can only make full information available. So that’s just the sort of acknowledgement that the Attorney General is an independent body and he gets to make a decision, you know, whatever - whatever he sees fit based upon whatever information. So, you know, look as - as much as there is, you know, the main crux of this deal is you getting control over the prosecution of cases. You getting control over if you want - the extent of information.
You getting some guarantees over that. And in exchange us RUSSO, prosecutor: I’d like to put a deadline on him too. You know, and say hey you gotta come back moving forward as quickly as possible with you controlling, you know, some of the deadlines. So I don’t know I - I do think you get what you want.
I mean look we just with a decision next week but, you know, he’s not gonna listen to me. can’t, you know, I don’t have the authority to speak for the Attorney General and KEYES: Well there’s another factor that I just - just occurred to me recently with the sentencing portion is if whoever happens to be sentencing me knows that the death penalty is what I want there’s a chance that, uh, there could be some reverse KEYES: Yeah, but I’m just saying it could work either way. psychology going into play there and they’re gonna wanna give me the opposite of RUSSO, prosecutor: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it’s possible - it’s possible. what I want.
RUSSO, prosecutor: Mm-hm. Well I think you even talked about that at one point and that’s - that was part of your thought that you’d go before a jury rather than a judge. KEYES: There’s just a lot of un - (chuckles) unknowns. RUSSO, prosecutor: I mean look, yeah… KEYES: I don’t know.
RUSSO, prosecutor: I mean here - here would be, you know… KEYES: Maybe this, yeah… RUSSO, prosecutor: You can’t guarantee a - like I said I can’t guarantee what a judge is gonna do, I cant guarantee what a jury’s gonna do but. KEYES: You just work out a whole under the table resolution. RUSSO, prosecutor: I - I… BELL, Anchorage Police: And the other - the other way to look at that though is too is if, uh, if you think that’s a possibility with that reverse psychology I mean I guess by if - if - if they think you have something still to offer maybe - maybe that would be an option but if - if not then you know what I mean? If they still think there’s information to - to be had or as if we had an agreement where all the information was gonna come out I - I mean I think that might be less likely you know what I mean?
He had worked out the last problem himself, and he was right about it. RUSSO, prosecutor: Yeah, I mean, you know, she can always sort of change her recommendation… ▸ 26 July 2012 KEYES: No I’ll sign it now. RUSSO, prosecutor: …there’s procedures for that. KEYES: I - I just woulda - I was told that, you know, it was already done.
It was… CURTNER, his attorney: The recommendation’s already in ISRAEL. And - and to me I don’t think this is valid anyway. You know our feeling about it ‘cause you’ve complied with your agreement - part of the agreement. I don’t - and so… KEYES: Look I - the bottom (chuckles) line - we already all know how this - how this ends so, you know, it’s - all I care about is what happens between now and whenever it ends and if, you know, things don’t go the way I want (chuckles) I don’t - I don’t need you guys (chuckles).
CURTNER, his attorney: Well let’s - let’s just talk about okay? CURTNER, his attorney: I mean let’s see if we can resolve it. KEYES: I don’t - this - this… KEYES: …whole thing is just turning into… RUSSO, prosecutor: Well, yeah, you can discuss that with them. I mean we have - we’re required by our - ▸ Richard Curtner, his own attorney, on the record our, um, policies to give them an opportunity and you and opportunity to do that.
So BELL, Anchorage Police: Have you read that letter ISRAEL? you, you know, you talk to them about what you want them to do. That’s - that’s between you guys, all right? So, um, but I mean to the extent that this letter - I KEYES: Yeah, it’s words on paper I guess.
mean this, you know, uh, I think the US Attorney would appreciate it, gratification if you did sign this letter. CURTNER, his attorney: And I just gotta put on record this is against my advice ISRAEL, um… RUSSO, prosecutor: Yeah, why don’t read it just to make sure. BELL, Anchorage Police: Just to make sure - just to make sure you understand it. RUSSO, prosecutor: Same one you’ve seen before.
That was the twenty-sixth of July. FELDIS, prosecutor: Well you’re not gonna get rumors coming out from us and you haven’t so far. The ▸ Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis stuff that’s come out is when there’s been – when the people outside of this room feel like that you’re not being forthcoming.
KEYES: Right. I know. FELDIS, prosecutor: And – and we can – we can be advocates for how we wanna pursue this case but we need – we need something to – we need material. We need currency.
We need something to advocate with. And that’s what kinda – not kinda that’s exactly what we’ve told you for the last six months or more. KEYES: Yeah, I understand that. FELDIS, prosecutor: So....
RUSSO, prosecutor: What about, um, I mean just the idea of – and I’m just thinking alo – along the lines of what, you know, we tell Vermont lets just sort of stand down. Even just a clue that doesn’t give up anything from your perspective but at least gives everybody something to work with behind the scenes. Nothing that we, you know, have to kind of go and publicize to the world but a clue about, you know, one of the past murders that is really not gonna reveal anything. So you’re not playing any cards but at least we’re then going back to these guys bosses and to Vermont and saying, look he’s given us a clue in exchange for this sort of discretion and for everybody to kinda stand down so to speak.
RUSSO, prosecutor: The notion of this whole idea is, you know, hey ya – ya come over, we keep things ▸ What a clue is worth: sushi, a candy bar, an hour on the internet going, you know, at least on a – on a – on a smaller scale. You’re not giving up anything in terms of trading value but you’re giving us credibility with other people we have to deal with. You know, you’re not giving us any, you know, useful information really other than all right well we got, you know, a knife in Washington. Uh, it’s not like we’re gonna solve the clue game on that like, you know, professor plum in the library type of thing.
But it – it gives us a little bit of, you know, stuff to go back with people and buy time and buy.... RUSSO, prosecutor: what we need to buy. And, you know, in – in the short term, you know, you have short term needs that you think, you know, might be fun to have sush [sic]. That’s something that, you know, can be arranged.
We’re not talking about, you know, huge clues here. KEYES: What did you guys find in the boat? Was there anything left? GOEDEN, FBI: Yeah, we went, um....
BELL, Anchorage Police: I thought we went over.... GOEDEN, FBI: There – there was.... KEYES: I saw the list. GOEDEN, FBI: Um, it has not – everything has not gone to, uh, finished up at DNA yet, um, so it’s possible that there were still, um, there were some – some areas that did test GOEDEN, FBI: There was no knife.
Oh you mean in terms of the lab? positive for blood. Just when they do like a pres – they call it a presumptive test when the people that were searching it. So those things went into the lab and some of those things were like the screws from holding the carpeting in and that kinda thing.
Those have not come back yet from DNA, um, the little, uh, there were some little fragments that they thought might have been bone fragment, um, was not bone – did not test positive for bone. That one’s come back. The last recording was made on the twenty-ninth of November. It is the only one of the five in which he says plainly how anybody died.
KEYES: Just a different blade style. Same company and everything. ▸ 29 November 2012 RUSSO, prosecutor: So I’m correct about that – that was the murder weapon for one of the Washington KEYES: Well it was involved, yeah. murders?
RUSSO, prosecutor: It was involved? FELDIS, prosecutor: I think we talked about before when we were asking about federal jurisdiction about FELDIS, prosecutor: Were the – were any – were either of those victims shot? KEYES: Yeah. FELDIS, prosecutor: Mm-hm.
Everybody else was strangled? FELDIS, prosecutor: No? Strangled? KEYES: (BRIEF SILENCE).
(Chuckles) you’ll get the whole story eventually. ▸ Bill Currier and his wife Lorraine were killed in Vermont in June 2011 RUSSO, prosecutor: Mm-hm. FELDIS, prosecutor: Need to get parts so that we can move, uh.... KEYES: No the only person I ever shot was, uh, Bill CURRIER.
KEYES: Yeah, or, yeah. FELDIS, prosecutor: Or? I don’t wanna have the wrong impression, you know, so everybody else was strangled or was there something else? KEYES: Um, (BRIEF SILENCE) yeah, I (chuckles) no, well one of the Washington things there was a (BRIEF SILENCE) well it doesn’t matter.
It just - no it wasn’t – it wasn’t s – strangling. Wow Uh, I hit somebody in the head so.... Bill Currier was shot in the basement of a house in Essex, Vermont, in June 2011. His wife Lorraine was killed the same night.
Neither body has been found. GOEDEN, FBI: It depends how deep – I learned a lot when we were talking about.... ▸ Lake Crescent, Washington. Nobody has reached the bottom of it BELL, Anchorage Police: And if it’s not critters it can be like....
KEYES: Bacteria. GOEDEN, FBI: They were talking if the.... KEYES: So if the waters below say forty five degrees all the time. BELL, Anchorage Police: I would think that would be good.
GOEDEN, FBI: It’s a good chance. BELL, Anchorage Police: Then you – I think you said eighty – up to eighty feet. At one point and time you FELDIS, prosecutor: Like two hundred feet? told us.
KEYES: Oh there’s water that’s a lot deeper than that. BELL, Anchorage Police: So we should like get a submarine? FELDIS, prosecutor: Deeper than two hundred feet? KEYES: You guys know about Lake Crescent in Washington right?
GOEDEN, FBI: Mm-hm. BELL, Anchorage Police: Two man submarine. FELDIS, prosecutor: How deep is it? KEYES: I think that lake is five to seven hundred feet deep.
KEYES: two hundred feet and.... FELDIS, prosecutor: So five hundred feet? KEYES: They’ve never been to the bottom of it. There’s – people have gone off that lake and they still haven’t found ‘em.
Their cars or anything. FELDIS, prosecutor: And that’s the lake? KEYES: That’s one of the lakes. FELDIS, prosecutor: So it’s fairly deep so this may be never could be able to be recovered?
BELL, Anchorage Police: That’s the lake. KEYES: That’s the deepest part but.... KEYES: I’m saying I don’t know how deep it was. I know the general area.
I had a fish FELDIS, prosecutor: Oh is that your fish finder – goes to a hundred? finder but it didn’t register how deep it was. I just know it was over a hundred KEYES: I think. I don’t remember.
I just know if you’ve been to the lake you would see what I’m talking about. It – it, you know, drops down like a V so.... FELDIS, prosecutor: But you didn’t go to the five hundred foot places for.... KEYES: No I wasn’t – I was in a – I was near the edge but, you know, thirty feet out from BELL, Anchorage Police: Maxed out at a hundred feet?
the bank on that lake it goes – it drops down to fifty, sixty feet already. And I was. So anyway.... GOEDEN, FBI: They – the lab was talking about a case recently actually where they recovered a car that had been submerged in water and I don’t know how deep it was even in but it was – it was a relatively cold lake.
And because it had been submerged in – and water still got in but critters and other things weren’t able to get in the car and that KEYES: Yeah, I don’t really tend to move around. was in the 40’s – in the 1940’s. And part of the body was still intact. Because sh – the – the person was protected by the car.
So there’s a lot of factors that go into GOEDEN, FBI: But there will definitely, um, even if there isn’t skin or things like that, long bones will be – can be recovered. They’ll just be missing small bones. GOEDEN, FBI: But if there’s other – if there’s other sp – specifics in terms of things that you know of depths and temperatures and that kinda stuff we can certainly make some phone calls and find out what to predict. KEYES: Well that – I figured you would have guessed that lake (chuckles).
It was pretty obvious. But, um, that I – I was – I always had me curious as to what it look like – I would think as deep as that lake is it’s probably sitting there just exactly as it was when it first touched down. KEYES: I know most fresh water lakes that deep there aren’t even that many fish that go FELDIS, prosecutor: Could be. down that deep is it.
BELL, Anchorage Police: But that one’s not in anything it’s just ropes or something holding it.... RUSSO, prosecutor: The agents are already talking.... KEYES: Well that’s what the weights were. FELDIS, prosecutor: Is that the milk jugs that you said?
FELDIS, prosecutor: How many milk jugs we talking about? FELDIS, prosecutor: Milk jugs. How many milk jugs? I mean is it gonna move around?
KEYES: Uh, no. I don’t think so. KEYES: At least four or five I would think. ▸ Three days after this, he was found dead in his cell FELDIS, prosecutor: Just for one body?
FELDIS, prosecutor: Hm. Well what about a cache that they can work on for next week? KEYES: (BRIEF SILENCE) well the easiest would be Washington. ‘Cause I – I don’t – I know my way around there a little better (chuckles).
On the second of December 2012, three days after this recording, he was found dead in his cell in Anchorage. He did not leave the names. ▸ The FBI, publishing the tapes, 13 August 2013 ▸ He named three people. One body was recovered.
The FBI believes there were eleven Three people are named: Samantha Koenig, and Bill and Lorraine Currier. One body was recovered, from a lake outside Anchorage. He confessed to those three and to at least seven more, and named none of the seven. The figure of eleven is the FBI's, and the FBI has explained where it comes from.
They put the number to him in interviews and he did not correct it. He was a man who corrected them.
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